[alexpinca]

One poll I find extremely interesting is that the more often you attend church, the more likely you are to support torture.

http://www.cnn.com/2...ligion.torture/

[buzzjosh]

Interesting poll Alex, thanks for sharing it. I wonder if the underlying contibutor here is just how conservative people are in thier world outlook. People who regular go to church tend to be more conservative than thier non-attending peers. This has been found to be the case for Christians at least. Interesting that whatever the motivator the evangelicals approved of torture at the highest rate - 60%.

Found it very disheartening that the overall percent of people , regardless of church attendence or not, who said torture was never appropriate/right was only 25%. This always gets me (and you also I have noticed) in trouble but ---- I am amazed at how easily and quickly people in this country feel that it is OK to break treaties, etc., when they feel the least bit threatened. I do not want to call this arrogance but what else can it be called?

What are treaties, compacts and laws good for if they are not to be followed? Why go through all the rigamarole to negotiate, compromize and sign these things if there is only a situational chance that they will be honored?

Thanks again for sharing.

[alexpinca]

Kind of underscores the adage, "Lord protect me from your followers". I don't want to get on their bad side...they might waterboard you.

Despite the forgoing, I am more respectfull of the spirtual realm than I might sound. I just don't feel that my beliefs resemble the kind of faith that ultimately results in support of torture.

[buzzjosh]

I too find it sad that so many people who describe themselves as being "of Faith" cop out so easily with redards to the use of torture. But, more and more, the figures are starting to show that being a self-described Christian in this country correclates highly with being below the norm population wise in regards to education level. Before anyone out there becomes offended please understand that correlations are not causal and the lower education levels of Faith-people is not significantly lower than the general population. But there are some sign that seem to indicate that this is happening and must be taken into consideration.

I have said it before - when one waits to be told what do do by someone who suppossedly reads the Holy Scriptures with a deeper understanding then one may be fooled or misled. That is the problem with all religions that place such an emphasis on interpretation of the written word.

[alexpinca]

buzzjosh, on Jun 9 2009, 01:56 AM, said:

I too find it sad that so many people who describe themselves as being "of Faith" cop out so easily with redards to the use of torture. But, more and more, the figures are starting to show that being a self-described Christian in this country correclates highly with being below the norm population wise in regards to education level. Before anyone out there becomes offended please understand that correlations are not causal and the lower education levels of Faith-people is not significantly lower than the general population. But there are some sign that seem to indicate that this is happening and must be taken into consideration.

I have said it before - when one waits to be told what do do by someone who suppossedly reads the Holy Scriptures with a deeper understanding then one may be fooled or misled. That is the problem with all religions that place such an emphasis on interpretation of the written word.

Buzz, to take your point further, if you focus on fundamentalist Christians, there is a significant difference. Mainstream Christians prop the numbers up. Palin and her followers drag it down.

[buzzjosh]

Alex, I did check some data bases and what you suggested is indeed the case. The evangelicals do tend to have a lower educational level than mainstream Protestants as well a Roman Catholic (this even considering that many R Catholics are recent immigrants with somewhat lower ed levels. I did not want to make a big deal out of this but it is something people must consider when talking about this particular demographic if they want to see beneath the surface and look for substantive trends.

Do not want to start an on-site war so please people with a "born again", "fundamentalist" or "evangelical" bent to your Faith I am not saying that you are ignorant or dopes or anything along those lines. I am merely stating whta national figures offer us. Honestly, one cannot go through life denying any science that does not conform to some very interesting Jewish writings about a Great Jewish Rab and expect to be in the top 10% of the class. It just does not work that way in the real world. I am not saying anything beyond this.

[buzzjosh]

The uproar to the torture that was used by the Bush Administration against prisoners of war-like settings has died down in our country. Many Repubs (and way too many Dems are breathing a sigh of reflief - they might think it is over - they MIGHT be dead wrong). The Spanish Court that has been investigating this situation independent of the US has leaked out that a decision is near.

It will not be a clear cut this is what happened and it is wrong (or right?) kind of decision. The Court will rule whether enough evidence exists to support a full "Official, government-backed" inquiry into the matter. All journalists in Europe following this case seem to think the news will be very bad for the US. As I posted before, we may have dropped the ball on the opportunity to control the direction and the tenor of this case.

I hope for our sake that we can recover and play a constructive role in this matter yet. Be ready everyone if this investigation becomes a Euro-centered affair. I am sure we will hear people (blowhards?, denyers?) railing against the ungrateful Europeans and demanding we withstand pressure from them. We like our allies until they start acting too much on thier own. Then, SLAM, they are afainst us. The game never ends. Same ending usually also.

[buzzjosh]

Attorney General Holder has FINALLY named a special prosecutor to look into the morass surrounding America's Bushian vnture into the use of torture as a national policy. Mr. Obama will not take a stand on this as he has pledged to have an independent and free Judicial Department. Mr. Holder acted with bravery and all Americans should be happy that we again have a real Justice Dept and not a Cheney Cabal in charge.

Now, we must be vigilant to insure that the inverstigation is carried forth in both a fair and vigorous manner. Our existence as a nation that follows the principles of "rule of Law" may well be at stake. We have an opportunity to expunge some of the dirt that Bush and his stooges smeared upon us all and we may not get another chance.

[JulieInCt]

I am very concerned that this will only go after the little guys and not catch those who caused these policies to be put into practice.

[buzzjosh]

Julie, I shared a simillar concern when I first heard the news of Atty Gen Holders action. I have heard, since then, comment from people I respect and trust - e.g. Chris Mattews, Mike Barnacle, etc. - that has eased my hesitancy a great deal. The man chosen by Mr. Holder is John Durham. He has a reputation of being a man of integrity and one that aleays follows the evidence and he is NOT afraid to go up the food chain if the evidence provides the need to do so.

The Repub s[okespeople I have heard speak of Mr. Durham all took him to task on various grounds - some so blatantly phony I was surprized they could speak with a straight face. If the GOP is vehemently opposed to this man he must be a good person for this task.

I fully expect the investigation to expand and I fully expect new revelatuions to surface. I ytust Mr. O and I know he will not obstuct this pursuit of justice. I believe and have so all along, that this is the correct action to take. I expect some strong resistence from the GOP but I also expect the, to lose in thier efforts to somehow interfer.

Already, initial reactions to this Holder move have been very positive in Europe and in other democracies. I know some governments will try to manipulate this investigation and try to tirn it into an anti-America propaganda triump. That is what we must face. When a country embraces and uses troture it must expect adverse reactions and our enemies will gladly abide us in this issue. But, bottom line is the Mr. Holder action is the right thing to do.

Let us just give this process an opportunity to play out and we must be prepared to speak out as it does unfold. If there are problems we have the duty to condem - if there are positive developments the same duty remains. I think it will be alright when the final evaluation is performed.

[JulieInCt]

Thanks for the info. I have less fear now about this--I should have known better!

[buzzjosh]

Julie, I know you know this but I an posting for the benefit of members/guests who may not be aware. The graetest legal weapon any special prosecutor wields is the legal ability to put witnesses on the stand under oath. The rubber meets the road here - perjury charges are a very real possibility for any witness called if that person plays loose with the facts. And Mr. Durham has a past record of strictly enforcing legal perogatives. I believe he will be a fair yet very serious prosecutor.

It will be interesting to see how much access the news media and the general public will be allowed to have to the hearing that will be conducted. Mr. Durham will set the rules here but I can already hear Obama detractors ready to pouce if they are not satisfied with the prosecutors decisions. Mr. O cannot seem to win even when he has not direct influence on the situation. It will be very, very interesting. I anticipate fireworks will fill the political skies.