[News_Hound]

In his final weeks in the White House, President George W. Bush has spent time reflecting on his two terms in office.

Check out two Cue Cards from his recent farewell tour: "First Couple Reflect on White House Years" "Bush Receives Size-10 Reminder of Unpopularity."

What do you think President Bush's legacy will be?

What is his greatest achievement? What is his biggest failure?

Where do you think he will stand in rankings of past presidents?

[alexpinca]

President Bush will be known as the administration that ushered in the 21st Century and began the gradual demise of it’s power, influence and greatness. The momentum of American influence will push it forward for a couple of decades as the faltering leader of the free world, but by 2030 it will be clear that a new leader needs to assume the helm.

President Bush was not the original POG (Prophet of Greed) but he assumed the helm of that philosophy and pushed it to new heights. If as we struggle to control the disintegration of our economy we continue to wrestle with the question of what got us here. I don’t mean Lehman Brother’s failure or the Wall Street bail out or all the other individual symptoms of the disintegration but rather the culture of greed that has been developed, nurtured and promoted by the POG’s. You’ve heard all the high-minded clichés and phrases, “The American Capitalist System”, American Free Markets”, “market corrections’ etc. I’ve actually heard President Bush say that the problem was not that we didn’t have enough government but that we had too much government. So it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough oversight over the banking and mortgage industry, we apparently had too much. How about that logic?

Under the leadership of President Bush, American influence and respect internationally has never been lower partially due to an illegal war, Abu Ghraib torture and degradation of prisoners, and Guantanamo Bay illegal detention of prisoners. Domestically, there were illegal wiretapping of American Citizens, unlawful detention of Jose Padilla, the so call Patriot Act…laws and regulations were no obstacle to this President. It kind of reminds me of the quote of President Nixon when he said “When the President does it, it isn’t illegal”. When President Bush was making the decision to invade Iraq, did he call in his foreign policy team to make the decision? No he took a long walk in the Rose Garden. I personally see some similarities of the emotional limitations of these two men.

This President lived in a kind of Truman Show where he felt that appearances could substitute for action. After the Katrina disaster, President Bush visited New Orleans a number of times making promise after promise. To this day, New Orleans struggles with the consequences of failure of leadership from President Bush.

But it really wasn’t the fault of this man, in a nation of informed, tolerant, and balance electorate, this man would never have been President. He revealed the shallow minded American voter could be swayed with lapel pins, flag waving, patriotic rhetoric and slogans of free-enterprise, free markets, American ingenuity, greatest nation on earth…and all the rest of the trite and tiresome chest beating that has become such a staple of right wing electioneering. We are long overdue to return to the principles that made this nation great.

[JDeese]

 bush1.bmp (199.11K)
Number of downloads: 140

Well to start off, I don't think Bush was our best president, but he wasn't our worst either (but he is very close to it). He was elected while I was in 1st grade, and now, while I am in 9th grade, I finally realize the different aspects not only to his administration lead the country, but to how he lead the country with his own sense of right and wrong. So know as I am understanding politics more as I am older, as opposed to when he was elected, I am very glad that I will be able to give my take on the situation.

Question 1: What do I think President Bush's legacy will be?
- Personally, I think President Bush will have a very big legacy, but it wont be very positive. I think that Bush is the 21st century version of Truman, who just like Bush, deliberately did things that weren't necessary for our country's growth or well-being. Bush did many things that got on people's nerves (such as the war, which will be explained as one of his failures below), to the economic crisis.

Question 2: What was his greatest achievement?
- I think that Bush's greatest achievement was bringing American citizens together after 9/11. He was so compassionate in his speech that explained to America how we would take care of the "irreputable cowards" that killed over 3,000 innocent people. After this speech, so many Americans were standing together and helping each other, showing that no one messes with our land of the free.

Question 3: What was his biggest failure?
- I think his biggest failure was his un-focus on the wars. My fellow Americans, we are in 2 wars right now (yes I said 2). We are in the War on Terrorism, and the War in Iraq (also known as Operation Iraqi Freedom). The War that we should be in is the War on Terrorism which covers Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Kazakhstan. This is the war where we look for Osama Bin Laden, and other extremists (AKA, terrorists) who murdered the more than 3,000 innocent people on 9/11. The War in Iraq is completely senseless, Bush knows it, I know it, and some Americans know it, but unfortunately, some Americans are too dumbfounded to understand that Bush has been playing both sides for fools. He went to the United Nations, proposing that Iraq had armed a stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction, which could pose as a threat to civilization as we know it. The UN granted access for Bush to send out a team to inspect, this team was called the US Army. Bush didn't find the WMD's, although, he knew that he wouldn't the whole time. So why did he send troops to Iraq in the first place? Well, before he was president, and before he was governor of Texas, he was and still is, an oil baron, which is a person who buys, sells, and deals oil. Well, as you may be aware of, Iraq has one of the world's largest oil fields, almost 20 sq. mi. long. Well, this was his plan, he makes up a story of inhumane crimes against humanity in Iraq being conducted by then-leader Saddam Hussein (which is partly true), send troops to Iraq to take control of the country, and take over their oil supply. Therefore, with him having control over Iraq's oil field, he would be able to deal it "under-the-table", to other countries and consumers, and put money into HIS PERSONAL POCKET![u]. None of this money touched our governments bank account at all, all of this money went into the big "Dubya's" account for his personal use. So, as you can see, this war is senseless, and Bush is sending countless troops to their deaths at his own expense, all so he can have a retirement fund when he gets out of the White House in 20-some days. So in my calm, objective opinion, I believe that this was his biggest failure.

Question 4: Where do you think he will stand in rankings of past presidents?
- Simply, I think that Bush will be very close to the bottom of the list, as he has been one of the most hated Presidents in our great nation's history. So I think he would be close to the bottom near Nixon and Truman.

Overall, Bush was more of a bad president, than he was a good one. I hope this helps you put George Bush into retrospective, so you can fully understand what him and his administration (or at least the dumb people in his administration) were up to during their 8-year term in the White House.


 bush_2.bmp (342.83K)
Number of downloads: 136

[JulieInCt]

JDeese, I am impressed by your thought out answers & knowledge of international affairs. I agree with almost everything you wrote. I wonder why you list Truman as one of the worst presidents--could you elaborate on that?

Alex, I agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't think the decline of America is written in stone. I believe that it is possible that America can regain and sustain its position--not likely perhaps, but possible. As you so eloquently put it, it will depend on whether the electorate actually thinks (rather than be swayed by rhetoric) before they vote.

---------
I believe our worst presidents were Buchanan (just before Lincoln), Hoover (just before F D Roosevelt), and G W Bush (just before Obama). (Whether Obama will measure up to Lincoln & FDR remains to be seen, but he definately has a shot at it.)

Legacy: I don't know what Bush's legacy will be. A lot depends on what happens in the next 20-30 years. If politicians start acting like leaders rather than POGs, Bush will be known as the last president to oversee a country ruled by greed and self-interest, rather than those who act in accordance to what is best for the future. If, on the other hand, the POGs regain power after Obama (or if Obama is unable to put his policies in place), then Bush will be known as the president who took greed to a new level.

Acievement: Pulling the country together after 9/11 is his biggest achievement. Of course, he squandered the opportunities he had at that point. The other achievement is working with Obama's team to have a smooth transition.

Failure: There are so many failures: Iraq, failure to capture Bin Laden, economy, Katrina, environment (both failing to do anything about global warming and giving POGs access to fell trees, dig for oil, etc on national lands), decline of the middle class...

Rankings: The thing that is so shocking at this point is that he still doesn't get it. He still thinks he has done a decent job.

[alexpinca]

JulieInCt, on Dec 22 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

JDeese, I am impressed by your thought out answers & knowledge of international affairs. I agree with almost everything you wrote. I wonder why you list Truman as one of the worst presidents--could you elaborate on that?

Alex, I agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't think the decline of America is written in stone. I believe that it is possible that America can regain and sustain its position--not likely perhaps, but possible. As you so eloquently put it, it will depend on whether the electorate actually thinks (rather than be swayed by rhetoric) before they vote.

---------
I believe our worst presidents were Buchanan (just before Lincoln), Hoover (just before F D Roosevelt), and G W Bush (just before Obama). (Whether Obama will measure up to Lincoln & FDR remains to be seen, but he definately has a shot at it.)

Legacy: I don't know what Bush's legacy will be. A lot depends on what happens in the next 20-30 years. If politicians start acting like leaders rather than POGs, Bush will be known as the last president to oversee a country ruled by greed and self-interest, rather than those who act in accordance to what is best for the future. If, on the other hand, the POGs regain power after Obama (or if Obama is unable to put his policies in place), then Bush will be known as the president who took greed to a new level.

Acievement: Pulling the country together after 9/11 is his biggest achievement. Of course, he squandered the opportunities he had at that point. The other achievement is working with Obama's team to have a smooth transition.

Failure: There are so many failures: Iraq, failure to capture Bin Laden, economy, Katrina, environment (both failing to do anything about global warming and giving POGs access to fell trees, dig for oil, etc on national lands), decline of the middle class...

Rankings: The thing that is so shocking at this point is that he still doesn't get it. He still thinks he has done a decent job.

Julie, I agree that there is no certainty to what I outlined...at most it is what is probable. Best-case scenario is we come out of this economic mess in two or three years but deeply in debt. But for me, the real problems is that I see no sign that we have learned anything about this is so called "shining city on the hill". This city (society) has adopted consumerism, materialism and greed as the modus operandi and I still hear those same voices talking about "let the markets work". We are in the midst of using every government economic maneuver in their bag of tricks (including government control and socialism), and their still trying to explain why “in these circumstances we have to get government involved”. We will save this economy over the next two or three years and then it will be back to business as usual with Wall Street moguls ripping off the American consumer, taxpayer and man-on-the-street. What POG’s don’t understand is that when everything is for sale, that includes your spirit.

[JDeese]

JulieInCt, on Dec 22 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

JDeese, I am impressed by your thought out answers & knowledge of international affairs. I agree with almost everything you wrote. I wonder why you list Truman as one of the worst presidents--could you elaborate on that?

Alex, I agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don't think the decline of America is written in stone. I believe that it is possible that America can regain and sustain its position--not likely perhaps, but possible. As you so eloquently put it, it will depend on whether the electorate actually thinks (rather than be swayed by rhetoric) before they vote.

---------
I believe our worst presidents were Buchanan (just before Lincoln), Hoover (just before F D Roosevelt), and G W Bush (just before Obama). (Whether Obama will measure up to Lincoln & FDR remains to be seen, but he definately has a shot at it.)

Legacy: I don't know what Bush's legacy will be. A lot depends on what happens in the next 20-30 years. If politicians start acting like leaders rather than POGs, Bush will be known as the last president to oversee a country ruled by greed and self-interest, rather than those who act in accordance to what is best for the future. If, on the other hand, the POGs regain power after Obama (or if Obama is unable to put his policies in place), then Bush will be known as the president who took greed to a new level.

Acievement: Pulling the country together after 9/11 is his biggest achievement. Of course, he squandered the opportunities he had at that point. The other achievement is working with Obama's team to have a smooth transition.

Failure: There are so many failures: Iraq, failure to capture Bin Laden, economy, Katrina, environment (both failing to do anything about global warming and giving POGs access to fell trees, dig for oil, etc on national lands), decline of the middle class...

Rankings: The thing that is so shocking at this point is that he still doesn't get it. He still thinks he has done a decent job.

JulieInCt - I apologize for listing Truman as a bad president, I meant to put Hebert Hoover. Thank you for pointing that out.

[ARRMed]

President Bush's legacy should be that of the greatest folly of the people of the U.S. I say this because on a fairly regular basis he has done things that the people have fought him on. He passed acts--such as the Patriot Act-- that undermined the constitution and rewrote the powers of the executive office. However, do I think his legacy will be as terrible as it ought to be? The answer is simply, no. History writers commonly misguide the readers of history books because for the most part they refuse to shed major figures in a negative light. They may say a few bad things but they always key on the positive. The reason is as a species, humans fear bad things and often say, "don't dwell on the past." They mean do not dwell on things that make me sad, that just happened to have occurred in the past.

But as I said, the legacy of President ###### Chen... excuse me, George W. Bush should be summed up in a sentence akin to this, "A Frowsy, idiotic attempt at conquering the worlds money and one that should be deprecated by all."

[alexpinca]

ARRMed, on Dec 23 2008, 08:12 PM, said:

President Bush's legacy should be that of the greatest folly of the people of the U.S. I say this because on a fairly regular basis he has done things that the people have fought him on. He passed acts--such as the Patriot Act-- that undermined the constitution and rewrote the powers of the executive office. However, do I think his legacy will be as terrible as it ought to be? The answer is simply, no. History writers commonly misguide the readers of history books because for the most part they refuse to shed major figures in a negative light. They may say a few bad things but they always key on the positive. The reason is as a species, humans fear bad things and often say, "don't dwell on the past." They mean do not dwell on things that make me sad, that just happened to have occurred in the past.

But as I said, the legacy of President ###### Chen... excuse me, George W. Bush should be summed up in a sentence akin to this, "A Frowsy, idiotic attempt at conquering the worlds money and one that should be deprecated by all."

I agree with much of what you said, any differences are in degree only. I as an American am deeply ashamed of George Bush as President and very disappointed that voters would have selected him twice. However, I disagree with you as to where he will be ranked by historians...already many historians (approx 2/3) say that he will be ranked at the very bottom.

[JulieInCt]

JDeese, then we agree!

Alex, I don't know that Wall St will be able to continue to operate as it has in the past few years. I think that controls will be put in place to stop the ridiculous pay packages and that bonuses will be based on longer term successes (rather than short term). I agree that we have been run by greed by those at the top - and by some in the middle, too. That doesn't mean that it can't change, tho...

ARRMed, thank you for mentioning the Patriot Act. How could I have neglected to include that in my short list of Bush's failures??? Also, he politicized the Justice Dept, which was just as awful, since we are governed by rule of law! You could be right that those who write history won't mention many of the things he did. It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized how truly awful Buchanan was...altho, I did know how terrible Hoover was, so there is hope....

------------
I must say that it is terrific that we will have a president we can be proud of. It has been a very very long time since that has been true. For, I guess, most of my adult life I haven't been proud. There were a few years in the Clinton administration (before the scandal) that I thought we had a president who made me proud, but other than that I think Kennedy was the last one who represented the best of America (and I was a child)...Can anyone think of a president they were proud of during their lifetime?

[alexpinca]

Julie, I hope you are right. When I look around me, I see members of my own family who believe that “personal responsibility” means that it was not the fault of the greed of corporate America, or the system that was poised to wring the last drop of blood from the lower middle class. Instead according to them it was the greedy masses that were clamoring for their time in the sun. I for one am gravely disappointed that some of my own feel that way. When is see that, I tend to lose hope.

[JulieInCt]

Alex, yea, I get the "personal responsibility" argument. To some extent I agree with it. It is absurd that people put money in the stock market they couldn't afford to loose, or took out mortgages they never expected they would have to pay the higher rates on (because they would flip their houses before the reset date). These people were wrong to do such things.

On the other hand, many people who took out mortgages didn't understand the terms--or they believed the smooth talking salespeople that it wouldn't be a problem. And, sad to say, some people used their credit cards for actual living expenses-like food. The greed in the system was flat out wrong--and because these POGs knew what they were doing, it was more wrong than the group of folks I talked about in the first paragraph.

And the really, really guilty people are the politicians who reduced regulations so their friends could get rich. Why is 18% or 20% interest on credit cards legal? It seems to me that when you look at some of the rates and some of the fees that credit card companies charge, it is flat out usury. They companies will tell you that they have to charge these rates because some people have higher risk. That is a ridiculous argument. No one is forcing them to lend to people with high risk....

[alexpinca]

JulieInCt, on Dec 27 2008, 06:49 PM, said:

Alex, yea, I get the "personal responsibility" argument. To some extent I agree with it. It is absurd that people put money in the stock market they couldn't afford to loose, or took out mortgages they never expected they would have to pay the higher rates on (because they would flip their houses before the reset date). These people were wrong to do such things.

On the other hand, many people who took out mortgages didn't understand the terms--or they believed the smooth talking salespeople that it wouldn't be a problem. And, sad to say, some people used their credit cards for actual living expenses-like food. The greed in the system was flat out wrong--and because these POGs knew what they were doing, it was more wrong than the group of folks I talked about in the first paragraph.

And the really, really guilty people are the politicians who reduced regulations so their friends could get rich. Why is 18% or 20% interest on credit cards legal? It seems to me that when you look at some of the rates and some of the fees that credit card companies charge, it is flat out usury. They companies will tell you that they have to charge these rates because some people have higher risk. That is a ridiculous argument. No one is forcing them to lend to people with high risk....

As I told my family member, "I have no problem with individual responsibility as long it isn't used to excuse the corrupt practices of the banking and mortgage industry". The credit card industry is perhaps the best example of the Corporate America gone awry. Where to start...the cc industry has you apply and then you're suppose to except whatever terms they come up with, they give an interest rate with the understanding that they can change it whenever the feel like it, and don't expect that they have any obligation to formally inform you, that can cut your credit availabilitiy at will and can theoritically terminate your credit privileges, double your interest rate and sit back and wait for your payments. IT IS PERHAPS THE BEST EXAMPLE OF POG BEHAVIOR!

[JulieInCt]

Agreed!

[alexpinca]

In measuring this President, we will always have to remember Iraq. In the current issue of Vanity Fair there is the following statement regarding what Rumsfeld said right after 9/11:

“That night, on 9/11, Rumsfeld came over and the others, and the president finally got back, and we had a meeting. And Rumsfeld said, You know, we’ve got to do Iraq, and everyone looked at him – at least I looked at him and Powell looked at him – like, What the hell are you talking about? And he said – I’ll never forget this – There just aren’t enough targets in Afghanistan. We need to bomb something else to prove that we’re, you know, big and strong and not going to be pushed around by these kind of attacks.”

Richard Clarke
Chief White House counterterrorism advisor

Now just imagine how you would feel, if you were a loved one of one those who died in this war. Too Bad Buzz isn't around because I'm sure he would have something to say on this.

[JulieInCt]

OMG!! This is beyond contemptible!

I too want to hear Buzz's reaction--I think he must still be in Chicago, but hopefully he will post a comment here when he gets back home.

[madirose13]

I don't really think that Bush noticed that our country is currently IN PERIL! There are three, no, four conflicts that we are facing.
1) global warming
2) the economy crisis
3) the Iraq war, and
4) a gas shortage. (Eventually we'll run out!)
Luckily, Obama will fix this (hopefully!) and we'll all be okay.
...maybe.

[alexpinca]

I think George Bush sees that the country is in peril but I don't think he feels he had anything to do with the problem. That is the really sad part of the story. But then again there are millions of Americans that still haven't made the connection between their anti government rhetoric and pro “greed is good philosophy” and the meltdown of our economy. We should all agree once and for all that government has serious problem in competency, but it is the only tool we have to oversee the workings of industry. In BC that is before the crash many would argue that government shouldn’t control business…that is how we got to where we are today. The Greed is good crowd had their way…and our country was seriously wounded…the question is how long will be the recovery. Some say years and that there will not be a full recovery. I am sorry to say that I am in that group.

[buzzjosh]

Alex, I quickly got a copy of Vanity Fair when I read your post. I wish, I were better prepared for what I read. I got physically ill part way through the article. I have not been that outraged in a very long time. Just thinking about it even now causes be great discomfort. What an absolutely senseless man and a ring of fools that surround him!

Even one week ago I was sure that it would be in our country's best interest to allow Shrub to slink out of Washington and go to his gated-community in Dallas. We are after all a country that treats its ex-presidents nicely. Even Nixon and all he did to us was forgiven in a way and he was alowed to live out his wretched life in peace. But Bush must not be allowed to get away with the evil he has visited on us. We the People must have the TRUTH of what he did and how he did it.

Before memories fade and POG's try to re-write history the TRUTH must be known. No not a witch-hunt but a fact-finding investigation with the power to force testimony must be initiated. There are some who claim that such an investigation would risk national secirity because there are secrets that must be kept. This is another POG excuse. The only secret that will come out is what is already known - Bush caused this country great harm for too long. For eight years we had a man who lied, broke laws and acted as a tin-horn, third-world despot - no great secret, just a great shame for us all.

How do I measure a president? From this day forward, the bottom is represented by Bush and all he did do and did not do. Between now and Inauguration day I pray that he do nothing, absolutely NOTHING. We have had eight years of mis-rule, a couple of weeks of "no rule" would be a blessing for us compared to what we have had. I do thank you for the Vanity Fair link Alex, I do not hold you in any way responsible for my bout of vomiting and dry heaves - that is one more thing that throughly misguided, morally suspect and intellectually moribund FOOL did. Pray that the time goes quickly so he can do NOTHING else.

[alexpinca]

buzzjosh, on Jan 7 2009, 02:08 AM, said:

Alex, I quickly got a copy of Vanity Fair when I read your post. I wish, I were better prepared for what I read. I got physically ill part way through the article. I have not been that outraged in a very long time. Just thinking about it even now causes be great discomfort. What an absolutely senseless man and a ring of fools that surround him!

Even one week ago I was sure that it would be in our country's best interest to allow Shrub to slink out of Washington and go to his gated-community in Dallas. We are after all a country that treats its ex-presidents nicely. Even Nixon and all he did to us was forgiven in a way and he was alowed to live out his wretched life in peace. But Bush must not be allowed to get away with the evil he has visited on us. We the People must have the TRUTH of what he did and how he did it.

Before memories fade and POG's try to re-write history the TRUTH must be known. No not a witch-hunt but a fact-finding investigation with the power to force testimony must be initiated. There are some who claim that such an investigation would risk national secirity because there are secrets that must be kept. This is another POG excuse. The only secret that will come out is what is already known - Bush caused this country great harm for too long. For eight years we had a man who lied, broke laws and acted as a tin-horn, third-world despot - no great secret, just a great shame for us all.

How do I measure a president? From this day forward, the bottom is represented by Bush and all he did do and did not do. Between now and Inauguration day I pray that he do nothing, absolutely NOTHING. We have had eight years of mis-rule, a couple of weeks of "no rule" would be a blessing for us compared to what we have had. I do thank you for the Vanity Fair link Alex, I do not hold you in any way responsible for my bout of vomiting and dry heaves - that is one more thing that throughly misguided, morally suspect and intellectually moribund FOOL did. Pray that the time goes quickly so he can do NOTHING else.

Thanks Buzz, but I do feel a little guilty. When I read that dialog I guess I wasn't surprised because years ago I had read "against all enemies". The idea that thousands of people had lost their lives, their limbs, their homes and all that matters in life, thanks to this naive venture into preemptive militarism left me very empty. The only thing that can make this right is a new 9/11 Commission. One that is not constituted to protect the legacy of “W’ as was the first. My hope is that the appointment of Panetta is an indication that this is going to happen.

[buzzjosh]

So happy to hear your comments on Paneta. I have always admired that man and believe that he was an excellent choice for CIA. He stands firmly against all the evils that Bush supported in his mad war that he wanted and did all he could to get. Torture, Gitmo and all the things that are so "un-American" can now be investigated and done so with an honest eye, not as you said to protect the legacy of Bush. Yes, perhaps Paneta may be able to conduct the investigation that is so needed by us and all the world that we as a country abused under Bush.